85: How to Talk About Antiracism as a Podcaster and Entrepreneur with Dr. Lucretia Berry - Part 2
Dr. Lucretia Berry is the founder of Brownicity; an agency dedicated to advocacy, education, and support for racial healing and antiracism. She is a former college professor whose love for humanity led her to author What LIES Between Us: Fostering First Steps Towards Racial Healing, a journey guide designed specifically for ‘beginners.’ She is the Anti-race/ism Curriculum Specialist for Community School of Davidson (NC), a contributor for (In)courage.me, a TEDx speaker, and more.
I first heard Dr. Berry as a guest on a show I was editing for one of my clients and, as someone at the beginning of their own antiracism journey, I connected with her message right away and knew I needed to have her on this podcast to help me talk topic of race and antiracism through the lens of a podcaster and entrepreneur.
In part one of my conversation with Dr. Berry, she shared the difference between the terms “Black” and “African American”, why it’s important to capitalize “Black”, the difference between a debate, a discussion, and a dialogue, which one of those we should be having as people who communicate in such public ways, and more! If you haven’t listened to it yet, you can find it here!
In part two of our conversation, why not acknowledging major events like a global pandemic or civil unrest does more harm for your business than good, how to transition back into your business and podcast after taking a break during to emotional and challenging situations, why you shouldn’t immediately run out and ask a POC to be a guest on your podcast in an effort to make it more diverse, and what you should do instead to make sure the diversity in your podcast guest list and your business is authentic.
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Transcript
Welcome to podcasting for coaches. I'm Britany Felix and I'm a podcast launch consultant who specializes in helping coaches and consultants utilize the power of podcasting as a way to build brand awareness and generate new leads for their business. I realize not every new coach or consultant can afford to hire someone to help launch their show. So I created this podcast as a way to guide you through the process of launching and utilizing your very own podcast to help you grow your business and reach a new audience of adoring followers and potential clients. If you're ready to get your voice and podcast out into the world, head over to podcasting for coaches.com to learn more. Welcome to Episode 85 of podcasting for coaches. This is part two of my interview with Dr. Lucretia Barry. And if you have not listened to Part one yet, I highly recommend that you do that because we lay some foundational work that's going to help you in this episode here. If you are deciding to so go ahead and listen to those without having listened to part one. Let me explain who Dr. Berry is. She is the founder of brown essity, an agency dedicated to advocacy, education and support for racial healing and anti racism. She's a former college professor whose love for humanity led her to write what lies between us fostering first steps towards racial healing, a journey guide designed specifically for beginners. She is the anti race slash racism curriculum specialists for Community School of Davidson in North Carolina, a TEDx speaker, and much, much more. In this part of my conversation with Dr. Barry, we get into specifically how to handle these kinds of topics in a podcast. So we talk about what it means when you don't acknowledge what's happening in the world. Because I have seen a lot of businesses do that where they feel like it's not exactly appropriate to share that in that professional way. or from a business standpoint, it doesn't have anything to do with their products. And we talk about why that's really damaging. We also talk about how to transition into having these conversations after taking a step back like I did for pretty much the entire month of June. And then of course, we talk about how to handle it when you have maybe realize that your show isn't super diverse. And you want it to be you really want to amplify the voices of people of color, there is a right way to go about doing that. But there's also a wrong way that actually can cause a lot of damage. So make sure that you definitely pay attention to that portion of the episode. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. And let's go ahead and get into my interview with Dr. Lucretia. Barry. Krishna, thank you so much for being back on the show. For anyone who did not listen to part one, I highly recommend that you do that, because we kind of laid the foundation of how to have these discussions in a public platform such as you know, on social media in a podcast. And for you, you have a business, you know, you listening, and you can't necessarily take the approach that I've seen some businesses take where they try and like separate it and oh, well, this isn't related to my business, you know, so I'm just not going to talk about it. So the Krishna, do you mind explaining what that conveys to an audience what message that sends when somebody takes the approach of well, this isn't related to my business, so I'm just not even going to acknowledge it.
03:28
I mean, it's harmful and hurtful, because the silence is hurtful, and it speaks of complicity and complacency. And, you know, issues of race and racism, whether you are touched directly or not. It impacts all of us. So injustice anywhere is, you know, injustice everywhere. And so when people show the effort to address show empathy for and want justice for maybe a community, or topic that doesn't touch them, it speaks to, you know, the family that we are, speaks to us collectively, as you know, this one human family, and we're all in this together. And we can all make time to bear each other's burdens and look out for us. And so I know, sometimes when things are going on out, we'll get someone who's just carrying on with life as usual. And I'm like, how right? Are you doing that you have to be doing that on purpose. And you have to be checking out on purpose. There's no way that this doesn't impact you that can't be that cold and shut off. Right.
04:35
Right. Absolutely. Well, I even know, amongst my own clients, so I edit podcasts for a living and I have a set number of clients that I work for it in a number of time ongoing episodes. And in the month of June. You know, I saw my bottom line impacted more than I did with COVID because so many of my clients were taking breaks from the show they were participating in the podcast blackout. You know, part one that we came back with last was my first episode in over a month, I think, because I just did not have the mental capacity to keep up. And it just felt completely inappropriate to me to go on, you know, talking about, you know, these almost trivial things with podcasting it when there's something much, much, much larger going on that has been going on this entire time, it's just there's finally a spotlight on it. And there's finally a chance to make some real lasting change. And so it just felt really inappropriate to me. So for the person who has taken that break, for the person who felt like they needed to do that inner work, and they've, they've done it, and now they're kind of like coming back into this. So they eventually need to kind of I don't really like to say return to business as normal or business as usual. Because this is something that should continue to go on forever. And ever. This isn't a month long discussion, and then we're done with it, and we move on and forget all about it. But we do still have businesses, we have bills, we have to pay families we have to feed. So how can somebody handle that balance of trying to continue on with a business while also not being completely insensitive and feeling like, Oh, well, this is over and done with? I'm just gonna move on now.
06:08
Well, I, you know, I guess I'm the other way, because this is my business. Right, right. Yeah, I want you to just talk about it forever and ever, forever and ever until it's normal. So that's my selfish perspective. But no, I think here's an opportunity, though, to be super honest. Well, not that you haven't been. But I mean, to be honest, in the sense that, you know, as you're re entering, you know, this is why I've been away. And this is what I've learned. And so I, you know, ease into it that way, like, I used to think this. And in the past, I have not engaged in this. But now I have learned this and I understand that, man, this is a part of our lives, right? So now I'm going to do this. And as people move back into, like, we're never going back to normal. So whether it be because of COVID, or because of the seismic, worldwide attention on racism, which has been amazing. So we're never going back to normal. So it now becomes about well, how do we move forward without losing all that we've gained while we were away? Right. And so I would, yeah, I would say who listeners to, you know, think about it that way. So even, you know, your podcast is? I'm sorry, this is random, but about baking cupcakes. I don't know if that could be a podcast? Because I'm sure there is. Okay. That's great. Okay. But, you know, I would imagine that you would want to, you know, talk about how, you know, you've been impacted, even as you move forward into, you know, baking cupcakes and, and I would encourage people to, you know, not leave the topic completely, you know, probably if you've been shifted and changed in some way. It'll organically kind of make its way into whatever you into your cupcake conversation, right? Some kind of way. So, I would allow that to happen. And allow your listeners to experience your shift and your transformation, even as you as you're trying to figure this out how to move forward differently.
08:17
Okay, that's great. Yeah, so what I've been doing on this show is just kind of releasing a little bit of an update. So it's usually like two minutes or something, explaining, hey, there's not gonna be an episode this week, I don't know when I'm going to be ready to do another one. Here's what I'm doing. These are the resources that I have found helpful. So far, here's what I have learned. And not going, you know, to Super in depth with it. But just kind of explaining, again, you know, just like you mentioned, like that work is being done. It's just not in a public way. And then it does make me feel a little bit better, because even coming back with these episodes still was like, oh, gosh, like, the focus should not be on me. Like, my voice is not what's important right now. And so as people come back into this, and one thing I have definitely seen in these podcasts and communities I'm in, people are like, Oh, well, I'm all of a sudden now realizing that I've been doing my podcast for two years, and I've never had a single person of color on there. And I need more diversity. So you know, are there any black people who want to come on my show and talk about this topic? And that is not the way to do it? So how do we go about incorporating more diversity in an organic way and not treating it as as tokenism and not having someone on our show? Just because we feel like we want our business to look like it represents, you know, a more diverse group of people.
09:37
So it's just kind of like, you know, the churches that are white, you know, predominantly are historically white, what diversity? And so really, it's like, well, if we have a smattering, smattering sprinkling the big bases are covered, like we've reached our goal, right? Is that what you want? Oh, maybe you do, but that isn't really beneficial. I mean, what do you want is authentic relationships, right? Yeah. One of the authentic a community of people that have a different ways, different perspective, a different life. And you have Mecom, of course, in all different kinds of ways, like in our house, like new and relationally diverse, but we try to see, you know, differences and all other kinds of ways. Like, let's go to a doctor, let's choose a pediatrician who lives in job or something like that, or let's make sure that our friends and LGBT community know that we support them. So I'm just saying, like, we want to build authentic relationships. And yes, if you are a gatekeeper, right, so you have no microphone, you should definitely, you know, pass the mic. But more than that, you want to try to build authentic relationships so that your life, your show is a reflection of your life. No, no, no, here's this add on. No, right? Right, the show is 20 minutes to an hour, but you could be engaging in life, long friendships and acquaintances that would enrich you with their lives, they wouldn't realize, and then probably would have a better process.
11:12
I completely agree and the kind of cliche of like, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with, if they're all carbon copies of you, then you're not really expanding your knowledge base, you're not really expanding your, your understanding of other cultures. And you also don't want to okay, because the other part
11:30
just because the person is, you know, brown or black, whatever. Like, that's the person that you pick the talk about race, is that, you know, that's not fair. Right? You know, so like, I have a friend who is pretty traumatized by that, because she is often the only brown face in white spaces. So they just automatically say to her like, Okay, well, can you talk about race? She has no more equipped to talk about race, then? No, I don't know they are. So they have just learned her. And you know, made that her own is not? That's not fair. So if you want people and people of color, come and talk about race, choose people who actually, like that's their work, or that's their platform? No. Yeah. A mom shows it to me. What do they say? No, this has happened to me a couple of them that someone said, Oh, where you have this black weight on my pocket? Or something like that? I don't know why. But that person isn't even a mom. Like they're black. They'll do. Right.
12:33
Right. And that's what I'm seeing. I'm it's like, I don't care what you want to talk about. I don't care what you are black. So please come on my show. So I look like
12:43
you're available. Yo, okay. But there's much more to the person.
12:50
Yeah, so I think maybe the takeaway from that is to focus more on building authentic relationships, and then those connections and those podcasts periences will come as opposed to strictly coming about it from what I think is a selfish approach. And you know, well, who can I get on my show? That's gonna make me look better? There you go. Yeah.
13:09
And even if I know sometimes, like, your timeline is short, you know, I read it, like you don't have time to cultivate a home. So have you got to get someone, just be wise don't just to someone just because their skin is brown? Or, you know, so for example, you know, Brittany after this, like, you've already put things in place, you're already in the brand new city membership learning. So I'm pretty sure activists, we're going to continue to cultivate a relationship?
13:36
I hope so. Yes. Yeah. And I would agree with that, I think interacting and being involved in these not discussions, the dialogues, as we talked about, in last week's episode, so having these open dialogues, and even just like purchasing courses, purchasing memberships, getting involved in these spaces, actively, you know, like consciously making the decision to reach out and form genuine connections to purchase this course, by someone who is a person of color rather than someone who is who is white. I think, yeah, you're right. Those are the ways to go about doing it. Rather than just putting up a you know, a Facebook post that took you 30 seconds to type out, ask someone to come on and do the work of making you look better. Okay, well, really quickly. I know we talked about it in last week's episode, but just in case, people are listening to part two without having listened to part one. To wrap up this episode. Can you give us a quick breakdown of brown ecity and how the listener of the show right now can benefit from being in that community and forming those authentic relationships in that way.
14:46
Right. So I would like to say that the team accountability is we are this great group of parents and professors and pastors and artist and what else I know a lot of we have a heart We have a heart for educating. Like I said, my, my background is in education, I just saw like this chasm, this gap between the instruction, the scholarly inform instruction that was like behind the walls of academia, and then what was available and out in the quote unquote, real world. And I wanted to bridge that gap, and bring this kind of that quality of scholarship and make it available and digestible, I should say, to people who don't, you know, have time, money, you know, space to audit a college course. But anyway, so it's not on that level, it's very practical. Our courses are very practical, and family oriented. And so brownness city offers, we currently have a membership site, and we're, we're in our first year. So in our first year, our membership is $10 a month or once in a year, you just get in there and jump into one of our starter courses or newcomer courses, and you go through foundations, which is, is one and then what lies between us is the other, they have the same educational content, which is that what lies between us has some tribal references, because of where it's typically done. And so once you go through the starter courses, then there's other courses in there like raising anti racist kids and anti racism talks, things like that, because we want to continue to, you know, build your capacity. Once you have a foundation from the starter course, then you go into the other courses and continue to grow and learn. There's a community aspect to it. So we're talking to each other inside of there. There's no trolls, unless trolls are gonna pay money, right? No trolls, no people to go off on you, everybody kind of has this under the same understanding of what a classroom is supposed to be like, then, you know, also if someone misbehaves, relate, you're out. We've not had to do that at all. But it's a great space to I say it's psychologically safe space to bravely learn. So come on in there and get your learn on. And it's a great way to support an organization that is building tools. Yes.
17:11
Well, thank you so much for devoting so much time being on both of these podcast episodes. It was wonderful getting to actually talk with you in this way. And I do look forward to continuing the relationship
17:21
with Brittany, thank you for appreciating, my teacher approached and my teacher voice. Thank you for amplifying my voice. I really appreciate that.
17:32
And that wraps up another episode of podcasting for coaches. If you'd like to connect with me further, you can do so on Instagram at podcasting for coaches. If you know it's time to finally get serious about starting your podcast, go to podcasting for coaches calm and click on the work with me tab in the main menu to learn more about my one on one launch consultation packages or my self paced online course. And I look forward to seeing the podcasts that you create and put out into the world.