72: The Long Game of Podcasting with Jenny Suneson
"As long as it’s something you know you want to commit to, just go for it." - Jenny Suneson
Jenny Suneson is a former social media strategist and coach turn podcast services agency owner. She also hosts the Savvy Social Hour podcast which strives to help passionate women uplevel their businesses and become rockstar entrepreneurs in no time.
In this episode, Jenny shares why she actually likes that podcasters don’t have access to a lot of analytics for their show and audience, how she helps her clients not focus so much on their download numbers, the importance of understanding that podcasting is a long-game, the multiple benefits she started seeing from her podcast once she had been doing it for about a year, what it’s been like to rebrand her entire podcast as she pivots her business into an entirely new industry, and her two main tips for those wanting to start a podcast.
Special Note: I was actually a guest on Jenny’s Podcast as well! Check out my appearance here.
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Transcript
Welcome to podcasting for coaches. I'm Britany Felix and I'm a podcast launch consultant who specializes in helping coaches and consultants utilize the power of podcasting as a way to build brand awareness and generate new leads for their business. I realize not every new coach or consultant can afford to hire someone to help launch their show. So I created this podcast as a way to guide you through the process of launching and utilizing your very own podcast to help you grow your business and reach a new audience of adoring followers and potential clients. If you're ready to get your voice and podcast out into the world, head over to podcasting for coaches.com to learn more. Welcome to episode number 72 of podcasting for coaches. The day this episode goes live. I am actually in Orlando, Florida attending a couple of podcasting conferences. I'm speaking at both the podcast editors conference, and pod Fest, which is a pretty large podcasting conference. There's expected to be about 1800 people this year. And I will absolutely be sharing any of my behind the scenes pictures or tidbits that I learned throughout the weekend on Instagram. So you want to make sure that you follow me over there at podcasting for coaches, I'll mostly be posting them in my stories probably. And I am super, super excited because my co host for my other podcast my hobby cast, as I call it, which is called gruesome gossip, lives in Orlando, and she's actually going to attend the conference with me so it is going to be super, super fun. Now if you don't want to follow my Instagram stories, or you don't have Instagram for some reason, you can join my podcasting insider's club, which is a paid monthly email subscription. It's only $5 a month. And on the last day of the month, you get an email with a recap of every new industry update or tool or tip that I have learned throughout the month. There will be a link in the show notes for this episode, which you can find by going to podcasting for coaches.com. Click on the podcast tab in the main menu and go to episode number 72. And of course, if you just go to my website in general, it's all over the place. There's like a banner at the top there has its own dedicated item in the menu, so it's not hard to find. Okay, so on to this week's guest, Ginni senesin, is a former social media strategist and coach turned podcast services agency owner. And in this episode, we're going to get a unique perspective because Jenny comes from the social media world where she has access to all kinds of data and numbers and so many different things that can help people make decisions about what to do with their social media platforms. And they can also be a hindrance, which is something that we do dive into today. So Jenny shares why she actually likes that podcasters don't have access to a lot of analytics for their show and their audience, how she helps her clients not focus so much on their download numbers, the importance of understanding that podcasting is a long game, the multiple benefits she started seeing from her podcast when she'd been doing it for about a year, what it's been like to rebrand her entire podcast and business basically, as she pivots into an entirely new industry. Because I know that's a concern for a lot of you listening, because our businesses evolve over time. So what if you start the show, and in a year from now, you want to completely change what you're doing? Don't worry, it's possible. Jenny's done it. And she also shares her two main tips for those wanting to start a podcast. So let's go ahead and dive right on in with Jenny. Jenny, thank you so much for being on the show. I have followed you on social media for a while, and I am super excited to finally actually get to talk to you.
03:48
Yeah, I'm super excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
03:51
Yeah, so let's dive in. Because there's a lot of things that I want to cover. And I try to keep these short. And that doesn't always work. So why don't you give us a little bit of a background? The listeners already heard, you know, your your regular official bio, but why don't you tell us a little bit more from your perspective, your journey of how you wound up in business and wound up with your podcast?
04:11
Yeah. So I mean, I think my journey was pretty typical. Like, I just got really not into the corporate world. And I was just like, Alright, well, what can I do on my own, and I did social media by job. So then I switched to that. Then I was doing social media for about three years on my own. And now actually, I'm have like a podcast agency, because I kind of fell in love with that after
04:30
starting my own podcast
04:31
about a year and a half ago. So it's definitely been a big shift. But I wouldn't change it for the world. Like I still love social media, and I still incorporate that with my clients. So I don't really have to worry about like missing that. But it just feels like I feel so much more lived. And,
04:46
you know, it's just feels so much better to actually to not be like worrying about numbers all the time because that's what social media was, and it was kind of stressful and being on all the time. So I'm really excited about my new direction. I I think it'll be a really good, it's just a lot different than last year before. So,
05:04
right. There's a point in there that I want to touch on really quick before we dive into some other things I had kind of decided to talk about beforehand. And that's that social media is very numbers driven. I know so many people, when they have a podcast, they want to be able to like, look at all of these analytics, and there are some, but there's not really a whole lot. So how have you coming from the social media, you know, management world where you have all of this data at your fingertips that you can use to make decisions about like, when to post and you know, how many times a day and what content works? and what doesn't? How has that been for you in terms of switching gears to the podcast world, and not having as much information.
05:45
I actually like it to be honest, because I think with all the data that I was given, and that the client could see, too, they were overwhelmed with it, and they focus on the wrong numbers. Versus with podcast, it's a lot more simple. And you're like, here's your clear cut, like download number. Here's your download number, like total, here's your download number number for episode. And that's pretty much all you get other than like, where your listeners are located, things like that, right? So I think it's just made it a lot easier, because like, they see that one number, and that's all they focus on. But with social media, it's like, Okay, well, I could get more likes, I could get more comments, and I could get more actual followers and like, Oh, my Instagram story highlights, like the story impressions aren't that great and things like that, there's just so many things for them to look at. And they would focus on the wrong thing. And with Pinterest, they would focus on like the monthly viewers, which is totally a vanity metric. So it's just like one of those things that it was just really hard to get people to kind of stay in their own lane and focus on the actual metrics that mattered. And this is like, since you don't have as many metrics, it's like real get like that stress and anxiety and like, Oh, my God, this person is doing so much better than me, because they only have that one number to focus on versus like tons of different information to look at.
06:55
Right? Well see, and I've kind of found, so not coming from that social media world and having a ton of this data. I think for the people who don't have experience with that, they do have this one download number to focus on. And it's almost to me like that number is the end all be all for them, like their shows success lives and dies based on that one number. And I don't know if you found this in working with your clients, because you do see this where people get so hyper focused on a specific number. And I see people all the time, you know, you talked about you're in the sheep podcast, Facebook group, which I mentioned on the show constantly. And people are always sharing Oh, I you know, I hit 1000 downloads in my first week or something. And there's all of this, like, number comparison, that really concerns and irks me because I mean, podcasts are so varied. So, so varied and the audience's are so varied, that like someone's 1000 downloads is, you know, the equivalent of someone else's 100,000. Like it took just as much effort and time. So how do you handle that with your clients when they do get hyper focus, because they only really have this one main number to focus on.
07:59
Yeah, so I just kind of tried to remind them like, this is what kind of show you have. So for example, like a lot of my clients have business related podcast, because that's just who I work with, for the most part, and the business, really a podcast, or like, you know, really common unless you have a really crazy niche down topic that you're gonna be talking about. But for the most part, it's like you interviewing another person about their journey, you know, for the most part, right, or like about their expertise, or whatever. So those are kind of the, I hate to say a dime a dozen, but they just are
08:27
there are a lot. There's so so many, it's one of the most populated categories for sure. But people
08:32
with more niche things like I do have a client who is a doctor, and she does naturopathic medicine. And that is a lot more nice. She gets way better downloads than most of my business clients, which is totally understandable. And she's also been podcasting since like 2000, and like 14 maybe. So she's been in the game for a long time, she had the time to build up that audience. But sometimes it's very difficult when people don't leave in podcasting for like three months, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, my download numbers aren't that great, or like they're focused on hitting like the new and noteworthy page.
09:00
And I'm like, you have to
09:00
think about it this way. You are a business podcast, and your content is really good. But there are tons of other business podcasts out there. You know, what are you gonna do to make yourself more unique? How are you to make yourself stand out amongst the crowd on social media, like in a lot of people forget the marketing part of it, and just say, Okay, this podcast out in the world who's going to hit the new No, no, that's not really how it works,
09:21
right? It's the whole, like, if I create it, they will come like, I'll just massively have this audience I never had before. And that's not the case. And so I love that you're doing that advocating part on your side for letting people know, really the reality behind a podcast when I start working with somebody or I have a consult with somebody who's wanting to start a podcast and they're just not sure if it's the right fit. I mean, I tell them, like don't even expect to see any kind of a return on this or to see decent download numbers for the first year. Yeah, if it happens sooner, fantastic, and it absolutely has, but it's a long game. And if you're not prepared to commit to it for at least one year, then I tell people don't even bother We're starting. Yeah, because those situations where somebody starts a podcast and in six months have a million downloads, on believably rare. That's like a new business coach, you know, starting right off the gate with zero list, you know, no, no one in their network. And they want to be making, you know, six figures in the first six months. Yeah, probably not going to happen. Yeah, I
10:22
mean, you just need to be realistic about it. And for me, it did it did take a year to actually start seeing some real traction now and seeing like, these big spikes, I'm like, oh, wow, that's a thing that frustrates me because I see this big spike. I'm like, Where the heck did this come from? Like, I went, I went to Spotify, I went to stitcher to every single app that I had. I'm like, I'm not seeing like a huge increase. What is this Lipson? What does this come from? I wish there was more data for that reason. But to tell my clients like this is your download number for your episodes. This is your overall download number that makes it easy, but also coming from the Pinterest world as well. I think people kind of experienced that as well, like the long game thing like they they didn't realize, okay, Pinterest is a long game. So it's podcasting. So I'm used to the whole long game thing, right? Apparently, I love the long game type things, because that's like, what I do like Pinterest podcast, or what I used to do Pinterest. But, you know, it's just like one of those things that people don't realize, like, it's gonna be a longer term strategy. And it's not going to bring you in 10s of pages or 10s of listeners overnight. So you really need to set your expectations and manage.
11:29
Right? So let's shift now and talk about how if you are okay with the long game, and you can stick it out, the return on that the rewards, the benefits? What was that like for your show? What did you start to see happen? And how long did it take for that to happen? Yeah,
11:44
so I started seeing like, more download numbers, I've gotten people to apply to be guests that I never thought would be a guest on my show. I didn't even pitch them, they pitch me, you know, so things like that were the turning points for me. And I was like, oh, wow, like, you know, I'm talking to Xyz. And I've looked up to her, but who knew she would ever apply to be on my podcast instead of me pitching her and things like that. And like I said, it took like about a year for that really to start happening. I started my podcast in January of 2018. And we're now as we're recording this, we're almost to July of 2019. So it's been really a year and a half since I started. And I just started really getting that traction and getting like more people actually applying without me pitching in the past, like six months or so. So
12:29
gotcha. And in terms of your business, I mean, obviously, you've shifted away from doing the social media management. But you know, that's what you were doing when you started your podcast. That's what your podcast has been up to this point, again at the time that we're recording this because I know that you have some plans for the future. So in terms of your business, what did that look like? What did it do for the business?
12:49
For so let's say one personal thing and one business thing. So personally, it really podcasting helped me be more confident. I am a total introvert. And really like putting myself out there was super scary. But podcasting was like the first way that I put myself out there. And that was a big step for me. And then I think it helped positioned me as an expert by continuing to have solo episodes and guest episodes and, you know, get that rapport going with people and collaborate. And I've definitely gotten some really great collaborations from my podcast, I've been able to do podcast swaps with people to be on their show, and then on mine. And that's been really amazing. Because I love being a guest. Obviously, I love hosting my own. But being guests is pretty much all the fun without the work. So I love that too. And that's like been the biggest things like being able to be on other people's shows like people that I was like, Wow, I didn't expect that you that you would actually want me on your show. So things like that. I mean, that's probably a little bit of me being like, thinking I'm not good enough and having that like imposter syndrome thing. But it's just been really cool to make those connections. And there's not really a measure that I found like, financially but just those connections and growing personally and professionally has been amazing,
14:01
right? I love that you brought up that point that it's making or helped you to feel more confident. Because in preparing for this episode, I mean, I subscribed to your show anyways, like I am a subscriber. So I had listened to one of your most recent episodes again at the time of recording this about like when they're slow periods in your business. And in prep for the episode I wanted to know like how long your show has been going. So I went to go find your very first episode on your website and I listened to it and it was a noticeable difference in just how even the volume of your voice you were more soft spoken in that first episode and like the power behind what you were saying, I can tell a difference going like listening back to back you know, your very first episode to your one of your most recent there is a definite difference in just the confidence level of your voice itself. And I mean if if I hadn't listened to the do back to back maybe I would have never picked up on that. Yeah.
14:56
No, I love that though. That's
14:57
helpful because yeah, I feel like I'm I felt it personally. But I didn't know that it was like something people could actually like, tell. I mean, if people have been a listener for a long time, maybe, but a lot like right now I'm getting a lot of new people. And I don't think they're going back and listening to what episode one but yeah,
15:13
no, exactly. And I hadn't before. I mean, I just I did to prepare for this. And I, I pay attention to people's voices, I've literally listened to podcasts for a living, right, so I probably pick up on things that other people don't. And I think a lot of it might be the awkwardness, it's your first time behind the microphone recording something. So it's a very intimidating experience in the beginning, but I love that I could pick up on that, honestly, because even if I go back and listen to my very, very, very first podcast episode ever, which was three podcasts ago, three and a half years ago, I cringe, but I also love it because I can tell the growth that I have had over the past few years in my speaking abilities and in my ability to just converse with someone and to say the things that I feel and think, you know, give my opinions and my advice with such confidence and power that I don't sound like I'm doubting myself, we're in the very, very, very beginning, I did have that imposter syndrome, who the heck am I to do this? Like, nobody's gonna listen to this. So for anyone listening, if you have those slots, don't worry, they're totally normal. I had them. And as you're hearing, Jenny had them as well. So if you just stick with it, you'll be amazed at how much you grow. your speaking skills, your confidence level, all of those things. So thank you so much for bringing that up. That that was part of your journey. Totally. Yeah,
16:33
I mean, I think it's just one of those things like, especially if you're introverted, like a lot of introverted people are very scared about that I was super scared. In that same like, within like three months of starting my podcast, I also spoke on a stage which was like, holy cow, like this is scary.
16:48
But it's just like one of those things,
16:50
you kind of just have to go for it. Like, if you feel called to make a podcast, go for it, like, your first couple episodes are going to be a little bit scary. And you're not going to really know what to say you might awkward, but honestly, it's so worth it. Because I think the personal growth journey and business growth journey is so worth it, like getting to meet all these people and make all these connections and stuff. It's just, it's amazing. It does it did wonders for my business. And for my confidence personally, like, it's so funny. Like, it's like night and day when I go to like events in person. Now, if I go to a networking event or something, I just feel like, I'm still not like an extrovert. So it was like it didn't change my personality completely. But like, now, it just feels like if I go to event, I'm not like awkwardly sitting in the corner, I'll like, you know, make an effort to like
17:35
mingle with people.
17:36
So definitely an improvement. Right?
17:39
Well, one other thing that I love about your journey is that you have had this shift. So I mean, you started off doing social media management. That's what your podcast was. That's what your business was. And now you've really niched down into something that has some parallels, but is really completely different. So for anyone who's listening to this, the coach or consultant, I would love for you to just kind of explain what that's been like for you. Because I think a lot of people are scared of starting something too soon. Because you know, what, if my business isn't this next year, what if I decide to rebrand? What if I decide to change some things, then I'll have wasted all this time on the podcast. So if you could just kind of speak to how you're handling this shift into something completely different? I would appreciate it. I'm sure the listener would as well.
18:22
Yeah, so it's definitely been different. Definitely, since it's completely different things like, like I mentioned earlier, with Pinterest, and like social media, people are always constantly looking for that, like, you mean, yeah, there's a lot more competition. But you're still like seeing that pop up daily, like people wanting help with that. But with podcast management and things like that, it's not as common of a thing that is really put out into the world, like, I need help with this. You know, it's just not as at least I'm not seeing it, maybe I'm not in the right groups, but I'm not seeing it as often. So I mean, it's definitely been hard and that aspect, but I think it's so worth it. Because especially now that I have all these connections, I can kind of say, Hey, I actually made this pivot as love. You know, if you have any people that are looking to start a podcast, I'd love a referral or something like that, which I felt like I probably wouldn't have been as easy to do about a year and a half ago. And I would have pivoted, because I didn't have like all the people on my show and different, like connections like that. Doing that's been beneficial. And, you know, I think pivoting is tough, because you don't really know what to expect. Like, you don't know if it's going to be a success or not. And niching down is scary, because you go from doing all these things to just focusing really on one core thing and it's definitely scary when you're someone who likes to do all the things and is decent, all the things right. So I'm in this like, weird transition period where I'm like,
19:44
oh, like, I
19:44
guess I can refer you to someone
19:47
else. But I do like I
19:49
do this now. I'm just kind of weird. And it's like, We're not saying oh, I'm a social media manager anymore. You know, like, I'm like, shift my thinking. But I think in the long run, it's gonna be so worth it. Because the more niche down you are, the easier it is to get clients. I know that sounds crazy, because it seems like if you have a lot of services, you might attract more people, but people are gonna view you more as an expert if you have a more narrow range of stuff than not. And I knew that beforehand, but it's it was still definitely very scary. I just kept going back like, well, what if I could add this back? You know, maybe not like, you're all of this, but maybe this one's there is at that back end? But it's like, No, no, no, God, don't do that to yourself. Right? It Yeah, you just really have to, like, you can ease away, it's like you have to give, get rid of all your clients, I still have all my social media clients, because I don't I'm not like I don't have a ton of podcast signs, I'll have a couple, I don't have enough to like, completely get rid of all my social clients. So you don't need to like write or go force into whatever you're doing. You can definitely like, ease into it. So you know, if you're making a shift, like, Okay, I have my old clients, but I'm not going to take on any new clients for this older service. And then like, kind of ease out of that, like, Okay, well, this client isn't paying me that much. And I got a new client that for my actual new service, then kind of like, let people go as you go. So it's not like, Oh, my gosh, I went from this much monthly income to $0. Right? That's kind of my advice.
21:13
So in terms of with the podcast, like, are you going to rebrand that? Are you going to start a new one? What's that going to look like for the shift?
21:22
Yeah, so I'm actually keeping the same name. Even though it's not like about social media anymore. It is called the savvy social hour. So to me a social hour is like, it doesn't have to be about social media, it can be literally me talking one on one with someone, I'm pretty sure given name, like 99%. Sure. And then just shifting the focus to more podcasts related. So I want to have some guest interviews where I talk to people with podcasts kind of similar to yours. And then we talk about what worked, what didn't work, what they wish they would have done things like that. And then I also want to have some gaps that are more like SEO for podcast or like things like that, because SEO is not my forte and things like that. Maybe like someone, people that are good at pitching podcasts, things like that, different types of topics like that, but they're still related to podcasting, but not like something I was comfortable with talking about. So that's going to be the gonna be the shift, they still get that like whole guest interview element, because I really didn't want to give that up. But I'm still getting to shift and have it be more relevant to my current business.
22:25
Gotcha. So one final question here. For the coach or consultant who is listening to this right now. And they are considering starting a podcast, they understand that the long game, they're willing to give it a shot, but they want to make sure that they set it up for success from the very beginning. So they love hearing what other people did wrong. Like you just mentioned what they would do differently. What advice would you give for them? Is it something that you have learned from your own experience that maybe you would do differently? Or just what could you tell them to maybe set their mind at ease and help them get started on the right foot?
22:56
Yeah, so one thing I wish I would have done beforehand is I think I did pretty much most things, right? Like I batched my episode, so I wouldn't have to worry about it. I did things like that. But I wish I would have launched with more episodes, I think that was a big thing. For me, I only launched I think that's like the welcome one and one solo and one guest and I wish I would have launched with like at least one more guests
23:14
and one more solo. So just to clarify, do you mean have already recorded or like release them all at once, release them
23:20
all at once, so that they could like binge on it on release day, which I didn't even know that was really a year half ago. And now I'm seeing everyone like, you must release five to seven episodes on your like lunch day or whatever, it totally makes sense because they give more content. And that's kind of like increasing your downloads from the get go versus like just one or two episodes, you know. So that's something I wish I would have done. But other than that, I don't really think there's anything else I wish I would have done. I did like research on tools, and you know, different things like that, and structure, and all the different things. So I don't think there's anything there. But if you're scared and you're, you know, you're scared that it's going to be a lot of work and all that I just say just go for it. As long as you know that it's something you want to commit to just go for it batch record. So you're not having to worry about going in and recording new episodes every single week. And it makes you more consistent stuff and just kind of go that way. Because it just makes it so much easier when you already have like kind of a like library of content ready to put out into the world. You're not like having to worry about oh, I need to record this week or whatever. So I think that would be like my two recommendations, like put more episodes out there from the get go. And then also make sure that you have kind of a backlog of episodes to go out so you're not stressing about where your next episodes coming from.
24:40
Perfect. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for being on the show. I am so excited to have had you on here and to continue following your journey as you niche down into this new world of podcast services. And for anyone listening. Definitely check out Jenny's show. I mean even the backlog of stuff I promise will be relevant for you because it's not just social media like She talks about all things business and they've been really valuable for me. So continue to, you know, do what you're doing, Jenny, I think it's amazing and thank you.
25:09
Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed being here today.
25:14
And that wraps up another episode of podcasting for coaches. If you'd like to connect with me further, you can do so on Instagram at podcasting for coaches. If you know it's time to finally get serious about starting your podcast, go to podcasting for coaches comm and click on the work with me tab in the main menu to learn more about my one on one launch consultation packages or my self paced online course. And I look forward to seeing the podcast that you create and put out into the world.